The A Word: Naming Abuse in Betrayal with David and Noni Yates

What if the word we most avoid is the word that brings the most clarity?

In this powerful conversation, Jane is joined by Noni and Dave Yates to talk about “the A word” — abuse — and why it matters in the context of intimate betrayal.

Together, they explore the painful reality that betrayal is not only about sexual acting out or infidelity. It is also about deception, secrecy, gaslighting, manipulation, minimisation, deflection, stonewalling, and the misuse of power. These behaviours can slowly erode a partner’s sense of reality, safety, intuition, autonomy, and self-trust.

Noni and Dave share from their own lived experience, as well as their trauma-informed work supporting individuals, couples, and families impacted by betrayal. Their honesty offers language for what can feel confusing, hidden, or hard to name — and helps make sense of why betrayal can feel so destabilising.

This episode is not about using the word abuse as a weapon or an identity. It is about naming harmful behaviours clearly, understanding their impact, and opening a pathway towards accountability, safety, and healing.

If you have ever felt like you were “going crazy,” doubting your gut, silencing your voice, or struggling to explain why something feels wrong, this conversation may help you find words for your experience.

Please listen gently and take care of yourself as you do.

Connect with Jane at Quiet Wisdom

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello friend, welcome to Confident Again, a place to gain clarity and confidence for women who are healing from intimate betrayal. I'm Jane, and with my very special guests, Tony and Dave, we'll be discussing the A-word, abuse, and its significant relevance to intimate betrayal. Our hope is that this conversation will give you clarity and language to find greater safety and healing. It's especially great that we have a couple here to talk about this topic from their own experience. Dave and Noniate are a husband and wife team who bring a unique blend of lived experience, professional inside, and trauma-informed education to their work with individuals, couples, and communities. Together, they specialise in relational integrity, accountability, and the healing of betrayal trauma within families. At the Centre for Men and Families in the Gathering 2026, just this past weekend, as we're recording, uh Dave and Noni have recently presented Omar Minwala's deceptive sexuality trauma model addressing the gigantic elephant in the room, which is that deceptive sexuality is a two-part problem. And I'm really glad to have them here as Min Wallace specialists. Together, they co-authored their memoir, Beyond Betrayal 28 Years, Lies, Deceit and Infidelity, in 2021, at which time they gave a raw and honest account of the journey to, through, and beyond betrayal. Now I had the privilege of meeting Noni a few years ago when she drove a whole car load of women to a retreat that I helped to facilitate. And I thought, wow, that's a really gutsy move to be a participant in a process like that with people that you're seeking to support. And I've learned that this is core to who Noni is. She's brave, she's daring, determined, she's authentic. So we've continued to journey together as AppTat's betrayal healing professionals in Australia. And she and Dave hold out hope for couples in recovery by sharing their story in their book and also in their Ask Us Anything live sessions. Can you imagine how brave that is? So, Noni and Dave, it's really great to have you here.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Pleasure to be here, Jay.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

I'm so excited to have you guys. And uh I just think what we're going to talk about today is going to be really valuable for our listeners. So would you take a moment to bring us into the picture of your story and why it matters that you're telling it?

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Okay, well, Dave and I have been um together 36 years, married for 33 years, minus five months. The reason I say minus five months is because in 2018 I decided that I didn't want to be in this relationship. I had had enough. I finally realized after decades that I was in an emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive relationship. And it was the behaviors that um were always kind of excused with uh either a mental health diagnosis or um you know stress or overwork or blah blah blah blah blah. And the reason that um so I didn't actually find out about the basement, we call it a secret sexual basement, all of the acting out, until we had actually begun a reconciliation process. Um but the reason why we decided to go public, and I was the initial instigator, I was so convicted that um, you know, because we felt like such freaks. When we when I discovered everything that was happening, um and we just felt so isolated, alone, and um everything that I was reading, everything that I grabbed kind of was either came from a clinical perspective or it seemed very healed, and it just it seemed a lot cleaner and neater than what we were experiencing. We just experienced chaos and mess and the reality of what this is like, and so and I always said to Dave, your voice is really important in this, and we just chose to be absolutely raw and authentic so that um it would validate the the reality and the intensity of this integrity disorder.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, yeah, thanks. Dave, it's really good to have you here too with Noni. And I'm just wondering if what it's like for you to hear Noni tell that story, and is there anything else you'd like to add to that?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Um I like to hear Noni Tell the story, right? Because um it's a reality of what our life's been and as you say it, I just remember I did not really want to share any of the crap that I'd done with anyone. I really I really want to take it to my grave. Um and with our recovery, we were so determined to um heal and I just remembered repeatedly I make the same mistakes. We go through the same cycles over and over and over again. We're really painful for knowing and confusing as heck for me. And if I can prevent that happening to other people, then it's not waste at all of this. You know, it'd be a terrible thing to waste all that experience um because as I said, we did the do-it-yourself way, we stumbled through, and it's only probably been the last four years, five years maybe, that we really got pressed into a really solid, clear understanding of what goes on with both parties.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

And having a language around it, yeah, you know, being able to name a name what it is. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, that's so important, and that's part of what we're here today. When I said to you, Noni, what would you like to talk about in this interview? You said, Well, I'd like to talk about the A word, and I'm like, Oh, she must mean adultery because we're talking about betrayal, and that's I mean, not irrelevant. But um, you're like, no, actually, I mean the word abuse, because that is a really uncomfortable word for people to hear. And I think, especially Dave, having you here and being able to be in a place where you can own that is a really powerful thing for our listeners to hear. So I'm really appreciative of your perspective as well as Noni's perspective on this topic. Um, so I'm just wondering what's your perspective on why people might hate to even use the word abuse in this context?

SPEAKER_04 7:38

For me, um, not even realizing that what the behavior was was abusive. Because I think when we talk about abuse, we automatically think about assault and physical, sexual. Um, we don't necessarily go to the the coercive, you know, um covert ways that a relationship can be emotionally destructive and and abusive. And it is, you know, like it is a loaded word. Yeah, it is a loaded word. And I and I also um I think that when you just sort of put the general umbrella of abuse there, it it's very, very um, very daunting, very scary, very, you know, um no one wants to be labelled. When we actually break down the behaviors about manipulation and minimization, justification and um deflection and stonewalling, and there's all behaviors that come under that kind of that term. And uh yeah, it's like it was a bit a very confronting and challenging reality because for a woman who was very um capable and able, and you know, when I when I was first suggested to me by a therapist years ago, um, you know, he said to me, if you were if you're with a man that was hitting you, would you stay? If this man was hitting you, would you stay? Absolutely not. But that's not the behaviors that we're talking about here.

unknown 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

You know, like if you jump into a relationship and it's um you get a smack, you know that you've been hit. But this is far more subtle, far more sinister, and uh yet it is still under that umbrella term.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I'm curious, Dave, about your own experience around using this term with relation to your own behavior.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Um, it took time. Um, no one gave me a book that you need to read this, Dave. And this is what I told you we go through these cycles of ruptures and escal escalating reading I heard and just oh give me this book that you need to read. It's it's called uh the angry um in um why does he do that?

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Why is he? Inside the mind of an angry man. I mean angry and controlling man angry and controlling man.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

And I remember going yeah, oh I'm not that yeah, Lundy's work does great work around um domestic violence, and a lot with those men and I went I can get the way these guys are feeling, but I couldn't identify with the action and I really I got through it, I'm like, oh yeah. But I'm not, but I'm not this, but I'm not that and that's one of the signs of those rationalizations that we make when we're betraying our partners. I'm not doing that, you know. I I I can I'd say almost every guy I speak to when they tell me what, yeah, but I wasn't this, but I wasn't that, I'm not like that person. But back here, let's focus on what you are and what you are doing and what the impact you are, not what you're not. So it wasn't really, and I think I read it again because we kept going through these cycles. I went, yeah, okay, I get I'm like that. Right? I'm like that. It wasn't until it started that Arnold introduced me to the white paper, the secret sexual abasement, and that concept of integrity abuse disorder being the second part of the betrayal act and injury that made sense. And all the way down to yep, that's me. Yep, that's me, yep, that's me. And I can also say I don't, I haven't come across a man yet that hasn't had the same reaction so far.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Um at the time I gave, I mean, I'm just it's not best practice what I did. Okay. This was this was at the time where we had separated, and I was uh going down that rabbit hole of what am what am what am I facing here? What is this behavior that's been um on and off? It was like a Jekyll and a hide over for decades. Um, I found that book, and that was actually at the beginning of our separation, and I started reading it. And I kid you not, I'm underlining, underlining, underlining. Now, at the time I gave Dave that book, we were in the process of beginning a reconciliation. There's no way in the world I could have given him that book six months earlier. It just would have been disastrous, it would have been unsafe, it would have been uh more fuel for him. So, in in saying that, he was in a position where he was he was beginning to be um receptive to there might be something else, you know. Um, so I'm just I just need to put that there because I would not want a partner to go, you need to read this.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah, yeah. And it was even harder actually reading it with the Mr. Underline. I've got to say that was really confronting for me.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Um, and I didn't like it at all, at all the first time. But what I was doing wasn't working. It wasn't it wasn't making our relationship better, it wasn't making me better. Um, the other thing is about I think the danger or the risk of is you can alienate the person very quickly by labeling oh, so you're an abuser. No. These behaviors are above these behaviors, these behaviors are abusive, yeah. And you know, you're abusing trust, you're abusing power, knowledge, you're abusing finances. Um yeah, so that works a lot better. Yeah, you're you're abusing the position you have, you're withholding really necessary information from somebody that I promise to protect.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

On the other side of that comes this really great rationalization that you know I withhold it to protect her from pain. And it's that withholding which is the big injury.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say around this topic of why would we hesitate to use this word, is one, we don't want to use it as an attack or a bucket term for every kind of thing or as a as an identity. But what we want to do, I heard you say there, Dave, is tease out what actually does that look like and put some language around that. And that's a bit of a reality check for has been for you, and it's helped Noni to have language for what her experience has been like as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

And just, you know, even in the like the definition I've got, you know, here, you know, what is how do we define abuse? You know, and this is I just pulled some definitions, physical injury, emotional or psychological harm, an unreasonable and non-consensual denial, non-consensual, it's big, right? Informed consent, denial of financial, social, or personal autonomy, including behaviors that frighten, intimidate, terrorize, manipulate, hurt, humiliate, blame, injure, or wound someone. The psychological and emotional abuse can be really difficult to identify. Um, you know, because someone might use like uses words, non non-physical actions, and they're manipulating, um, hurting, scaring, or upsetting you. There's a lot of manipulation when someone is actually keeping a lot of secrets. The the gaslighting is it is a form of abuse. Yeah. But I don't think, I don't think anyone can have this many secrets without using gaslighting.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

You can't.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yes, it's uh they say that that psychological emotional abuse is the abuse of of without bruises. The bruises are internal, the damage. So it's when we're talking about abuse, we're also talking about damage done.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

It's like, you know, I think in our book we I talk about, um, I used to describe, you know, like Dave, because he was nice, he was a nice guy. Um, it was like, you know, we'd be um, it was almost like having a snowball fight, but the snowballs that he threw had rocks in them. You didn't know that. Like it's like you, you know, like there was times where just a text might come through. This is like in the early days after we'd separated as well, because he doubled down a bit. Doubled down. Um, but I remember him um sending me a text message, and I literally had a I had a physical reaction. So it was almost like getting that hit, and he wasn't even there.

unknown 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah. That that's what happens.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

And you know, often, usually the man's not aware of this impact.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Unless they are in that percentage that are full-blown narcissists, which are very, very small, very small, tiny percentage.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah. These tactics, these reactions, these strategies are learnt over a long, long time about as part of me telling me I need to keep myself safe. And it's not just about protecting the deceit and infidelity. It's it's it's bigger than that. Um so it takes some time to actually one identify them. But really helpful is understanding how it actually impacts what that effect is, that ongoing and that yeah, when that's able to share me, I realize years of making her doubt herself, doubt the reality. When she senses something and I can either roll my eyes, make a joke of it, blind it away, or just lie straight to her face.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Lie by omission.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Or lie by omission. Um twist it, turn it, twist it, turn it, all sorts any different way, right? Just by just even out of reflex, but also out of protecting self or part of myself, or part of the lie. Um that over a period of time just erodes any safety.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, what you're saying there, Dave, is really significant in terms of intent. The intent for many people who use abusive behaviors is not to destroy the other person. The intent is self-preservation, and the self-preservation comes from a place of a whole lifetime of learning to protect themselves or preserve their sense of safety around using these tactics to distance themselves from consequences.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Exactly. Exactly. Maintain the status quo, maintain whatever we perceive the right, you know, how things should be around us.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

And I think while it doesn't excuse the behavior, it actually um it gives an under understanding of the underlying, but the impact, regardless of the motivation, is 100% the same.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yes, the behavior works the same way, it has the same impact, regardless of the intent.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah. And so we're not saying, and I just want to re-emphasize this, we're not saying that because it's only self-preserved preservation, it's not intentionally like trying to bring you down, does it not make it okay, not for one second? It's still damaging, it's still harmful.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

So I can have I can have understanding and still fully call Dave into account.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

And still fully express and still fully name what this what this behavior is and the impact that it's had. Until I got to that point, I inadvertently was enabling these behaviors because I didn't know what they were. I just I just knew that, just didn't feel this is just feels wrong. And every time I kind of approach, it would be like uh some kind of plausible kind of twist and turn, and then over time, you know, bringing something and then you know, being having that that um that reaction, that that awful kind of retort back. I learned, I learned just to silence. I learned to go quiet. I learned to not use my voice because to do that, I would get some kind of attack, and I didn't want that. So hence that got me to the point where I just went, the white flag's up, I'm out of here. I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. I don't care whether you have been diagnosed with bipolar two or you have depression or you know, all of these things, this is not okay for me. And and I began to see it for what it was so clearly. And I think it's one of those things, once you actually really see it, you can't unsee it.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah. I hate that someone say to me recently that um when you talk about the white flag, it for her, it came to the place where she realized that in order to stay, she would have to look at the white. Lose herself, lose connection with herself, lose who she was. And that's part of the damage and impact of those abusive behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

It erodes the other person's sense of who they are, sense of their connection with their intuition, their connection with reality.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

That's right. Yeah. And that is, you know, all of it falls under the psychological covert operation. Um, someone else is controlling the narrative. It's a it's an intentionally manipulated reality that you're kind of living with. And that's why you can feel like you're going crazy. Even, you know, sulking or refusing to talk or be kind until someone gets what they want. Um making you here it is, making you doubt your own sanity, you know, a perpetrator may gaslight you into thinking that you are remembering things wrong, that you're misinterpreting, making you believe their version of events is true. You know, we talk about, you know, standing at at two doors of a forced choice choice. This is one of the injuries where your gut has alerted you to something, something doesn't feel right. Um, but you've got a partner that is actually manipulating your reality. Now, now both your gut and your attachment is for survival. We are you know hardwired for connection survival. And then when you're standing at a door and you know that if you if you choose to walk through your gut instinct and you stay true to you, you actually lose that other that other party. Well, you can't walk through two doors at once, and when you're actually following and walking through the reality that's been fed to you, you're actually denying your second brain gut instinct. And then over time, that's one of the most awful injuries. Like returning to self is when so much has been destroyed of your own, you know, that that you that's your safety and survival. So it's it there's a lot, there's a lot of injuries in this.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, and I'm thinking about I you've heard that saying, the person with the secret has the power, right? And and abuse is the use, the misuse of power to control uh somebody else's experience and reality. And so uh when we talk about the secrets part of that and the gut part of that, and and what I'm hearing there is that when I choose to go with my gut instead of believe what the other person is telling me, I'm actually maintaining a connection with my own power and refusing to like buy into their power narrative, and that is a huge and difficult thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

I was just thinking um the risks of using the abuse word, right? Whatever the other is it's difficult for the for the victim. You don't want to acknowledge that this person that you're attached to for so long, you have good memories, family, whatever. You don't want to difficult to acknowledge that they're abusing you. This is and this is happening to you because also there's kind of a bit of a stigma that as well, incorrectly that oh, you let you let them do this, you let them trick you, you let them lie to you, so it's easier to believe the half-truths, the gaslighting, the manipulation. It's pretty confronting to take that step.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah. And it can bring a lot of shame, I think, is what you're saying, Dave, because I'm I'm in a relationship with an abusive person that was never going to be me. And how did it get to this? And what does this say about my sense of myself and my sense of my own intuition and ability to discern? And I remember sitting in a group one time with a woman who was a therapist, and she said, Here I was in an abusive relationship. I this is what I sit with people all day long, and I did not recognize it in my own relationship. So it happens to the best of us because the nature of the psychological abuse is often that you don't know that it's happening.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah. 100%. It's more like a poison than it is a hit.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Yeah. Yeah. Like having your house built on top of a meth lab, and you might not know what's going on down there, but the fumes seep up and it's poison and it's toxic for the whole family, for the whole, the whole life above above all those secrets.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

So I'm curious, Noni, for you, in, you know, you've talked about how you didn't know this was abuse. And then when you connected that with your experience, a whole lot of things happened, including uh like a drawing the line in the sand that said, I'm not staying in a relationship like this. Um, what else would you like to tell us about what that was like for you and what shifted for you internally when that happened?

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Oh gosh, you know, Jane, the journey is exhausting, right? And I've got this saying that, you know, when your misery is greater than your fear, then you'll change. And I had walked this journey, and I love it, still still loved Dave, still loved him, um, even at the point of separation. But I remember feeling that um quickly replacing any kind of nice feelings was resentment and contempt. And I didn't want those to be the last feelings. But I just honestly, I got to the point where I could put my hand on my heart and so I've done the best that I that I possibly can here. Um when I think I discovered it was an emotional affair after we'd separated, that um it was like a snowball of all of this other stuff that came that came out. I knew that early in our marriage, I think about six months in, discovered that he'd been unfaith, it was a one-night stand. Now, way back then, I would have um I was still self-sufficient, um, we were not long married, I still had a lot of money for my business, and I my initial instinct was I'm out of here. He begged, begged me to say no, I'm I need help, I'm you know, but we never got to the root cause. We back then there was nothing that said, well, what else is there? What else is going on here? It was quickly put across to it's a communication problem. I mean, it's only been the last 10 years maybe that this has really sort of come to light. And so, and then through a discovery, I heard him speaking with another woman on the phone. He'd just left our place, and that was that literally lit something in me that I'm just like, no, you don't, you do not deserve the person I am. And I literally, for the first time ever, um unleashed on him because I'd always been quite together, controlled, um, you know, self self-contained, able to use my words well, have no reason to walk around feeling insecure. And um, yeah, so I really sort of gave it to him, and that that really was a turning point for me because I literally said to him, um, I'm not covering any of your shit. Like I am not. So that was the beginning of him having to face, and truly for the first time, he started stepping into that. And I just I continued to sort of back myself.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

It sounds like you had an experience where it was very, very clear what was happening. I just read it in your book actually the other day, your account of that. So if anybody listening wants to hear more details, they can get your book and read about that. Um, but it sounds like the experience was so clarifying for you that you tapped immediately into your anger and your sense of self-worth. Absolutely. And that was that was the end.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Yeah, that that was that was the end. And the continue stepping up. And also me, me, I mean, I've always been interested in in what's going on inside of me. You know, I I've always wanted to be the best version of myself. But this was the first time that I'm just like, that's on you. Yeah, totally on you. Like this is I'm just like it's Christmas Day. It was Christmas Day. Merry Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Um literal line of sand out the front.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Yeah. And um, yeah, and he couldn't escape. And then I dug in and then, and then because we didn't have any absats or disclosure, or we didn't have what what we know now. So we fumbled our way through. And and I think the thing is the reason I think we're so passionate about this is it because it wasn't the infidelity, it wasn't the sexual acting out, it wasn't the emotional relationships that brought us to a place of separation, it was all the other behaviors. Yeah, it's all the other behaviors because I think that you know, even even in healing from this, you can stop acting out, but what about these other behaviors? He knows that I have zero tolerance for um uh you know, a tone or an attitude, or there's definitely no wiggle room for any gaslighting or anything like it. But he's also very aware of this now as well, where it was almost like a reflex action. It's just how he operated.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

I think the the turning point really is me learning how to use my voice again and to stand and not be seeking any validation from him, staying really clear in my own reality. No, this is what I saw, this is what I heard, this is what I witnessed. I'm not trying to use any more words to get him to understand.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, and that and that put an end to your being on the receiving end of that abuse. It didn't stop the abusive behavior, but it it put a boundary between you and the behavior.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

I mean, sometimes, you know, in the early days in particular, when Dave would try to go down a path of exclamation, I'd go, stop. This would be a good time to stop. If I was young, stop talking right now. And sometimes he wouldn't and be like over the edge.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I'm like, no, and I go, no, no, I've got this. No, no, no, I'm okay. No, no, you need to say, it's okay. I'm all right now. And and there'd be this bit where no his eyes, I could see a bit of the light of them, and a hand ago, but I had shut the hell up. Sit and think, sit and think low down. Why do I really hear there? What's she saying? Not how am I feeling, not what I feel like I should be doing, not what I need to fix, but what is being said here.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah. So I'm curious, Dave, about what it has been like for you to come to terms with using the word abuse about your own behavior, and what are some of the things that have helped you address the issue?

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Um, it's hard. Like it was it was more than a year. We we didn't have any help. Right. I love more than anything on earth. Um and having that light on my goodness, my almost my go-to defense or I wasn't even sure what I was defending most of the time is harming this person. So um and it is an ongoing, um so it's been a real eye-opener for me, and again, I can't unsee what I've seen as the result of my actions. Now when I my senses are up, I kind of smell or hear that around me. I can't I'm really difficult in ignoring it. You know, I've got you sort of your radars are tuned in because um I've got a glimpse of what the impact is over time. So it's been a hard one, but it's the other thing is I've learned to give up that desire to want to control, control the outcome, control whatever the environment, the results, you know, in good ways or not, doesn't matter, but took my hands off that and it's incredibly free and not going into that cycle, that reflex, it takes a lot of energy. I've said that a few times I said, I can't believe I can even function carrying the weight and um duality through life. So yeah, it's confronting, but it's also it also helped point me to the stuff in my life, in my background, the meaning I put on things, how I got here, it's made me curious about that.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

You've made peace with a lot of you know, you've learned to actually like and accept yourself as being less than perfect, and that's okay. A lot less than perfect, but as you've grown and and moved through this and been brave enough to face it and not hide, he's not hiding from himself anymore. He's got nothing to hide.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

But I I like myself a lot better.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

I like you a lot better too.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Thank you, too. Um, no, I didn't like myself at all. At all. I did things to try and make myself feel good about myself, yeah, and and try and do things for people or to get outcomes or perform or whatever. And when that didn't work, be angry and disappointed and all that sort of nuts. It's a common story.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm hearing a subtext of deeper work that you've engaged in, Dave. So not just acknowledging your behaviors, but also digging down into what's the history of that and how did that come to be and and being willing to go do that? And there's a lot of blokes that actually aren't willing to do that work because that brings up pain. Yeah, and so I just want to speak to that and ask you what that's been like for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Um it's been good. Has it happened all at once? And you can't you can't say, okay, I'm gonna do this in six weeks. I think I've explored um uh internal family systems, um core value stuff isn't excellent with Steven Stosney. Yeah, that was a real huge shift and really helpful, really helpful. I one-on-one for about four months with him, and it meant get four in the morning and having in bed. And he told me at one stage, I told him what was going on, and he said no you there. So yeah, he said, Can you get it? He was sort of awake, says, Turn it on you and say, You shouldn't trust me. Look her in the eye. Say you shouldn't trust me. And that's the truth. She shouldn't trust what I say. She should trust what she sees me do. Um yeah, so yeah, a lot of work. And then as our relationship came on, um there's great material out of the US in the secure relationship around attachment. Um and that's been fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

But yeah, I think and also I think connection with good safe men. I think connection is super, super important where you can be vulnerable and um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

And to be honest, yeah, in in finding groups of men or have got conversations you are not going to have anywhere else. Um even at the gallery on the weekend we'd have check-ins in the morning, and they're guys that have just met, and you see about guys being really vulnerable about where they're at, their fears, their life, their mistakes their mistakes, their stuff-ups with guys they've just met. So it exists.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah. 100%. And it's actually a rare and precious treasure to have those kind of connections in this really fast-paced world where there's, you know, there's a lot of BS. Oh, yeah. And so to find people who are willing to be authentic and real about their their darkest spaces.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

You've got to look for it. You've got to, it's not going to come and find you.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, 100%. And what's coming up for me as you're talking, Dave, and just I'm just watching you tear up when you said Noni is the person that you love the most in the world, and and seeing the depth of connection with your heart around how your behaviors have hurt her and how much you want to be a better man for her. And I just think, wow, what I'm seeing here is a guy who's really committed and done the work to be a better man. And and the fruit of that in you, but also in the relationship with Noni.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Yeah. And but it's ongoing, you know, there's always lots of room for improvement, you know. And I don't always get it right. Like, yeah, I got a bit edgy in a tone last week. I heard it, known, heard of it. Um, we knew it.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Yeah. Which is it's about humility, right? And willingness to learn and not about perfection. Yeah. You've got to own it.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really appreciating too, Noni, your part of the story about coming to grips with this, there was abusive behavior in this relationship, the clarity you came to and your determination that you're not going to be in a relationship with a person who treats you like that.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

I love Sarah Morales' deconstructing gaslighting. You know, like her phrase, I will not participate in my own abuse.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Yeah. And I heard you connect it to the sense of self-like I'm worth more than the way that you're treating me. Yeah. That's that's a beautiful piece of self-grounded um assertiveness, actually.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

And I think the women I work with, you know, like when I can see them get to a point of saying, I'm going to be okay, no matter what the status of this relationship is. You know, I'm placing my emotional, my clarity, my mental health, you know, above putting that relationship on a pedestal. I believe that when we wake up and it is an awakening, we get to set the bar. We get to set the bar for what we will and won't. You know, there's and there's a lot of work around that, as you know, with boundaries and clarification. It's not about, you know, a power struggle, but really reclaiming that sense of self and knowing, you know, your dignity and worth and being responsible with how we show up and knowing what's ours and what's not.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Now you thank you for those words of encouragement for our listeners as well, who need to hear how valuable that they are. Dave, I wonder if you've got some words that you'd like to share with women who are in no needs position as a person who's been on the other end of that.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Um, sure. And thank you for the honour and opportunity in this space. Um just because it's not intentional, just because he doesn't mean it or doesn't understand it, doesn't change the impact. And don't let that be downplayed. That impact. Okay. Just because you didn't mean it or isn't aware or doesn't know. Um trust you got and everyone deserves clarity. No one deserves to be in a relationship where you don't know where you where you stand. Um where there's no safety. And where there's no safety. So yeah, you get clarity and safety. Good boundaries are not punishment. I say to all the guys I work with is boundaries are there for you. They're good for you, they're good for the relationship. You've got one thing, one thing to keep your partner, help your partner, keep your partner safe. And part of that's keep them safe from you. They're not punishments, they're not taking away your freedom. That's entitled to talking to you. That's it. Those things are gifts to your relationship, they're hard, but they're gifts to you.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

relationship don't you think and I think too when um you know I I know that boundaries is a big part of the work that that we do when you actually first start learning about this and implementing it can be terrifying absolutely terrifying because certain people expect pushback and you'll get the most pushback from people who who benefited the most when you didn't have any and even with the pushback it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong so just go slowly.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

And I also want to speak to any women who are in a relationship where a change in their behavior may cause an escalation. And if you're a woman who you've got big fear around what might happen in terms of escalation if you're if you create a boundary or start to speak your truth in the relationship, bring good support around you and know that your safety is priority and that you can call the domestic violence hotline at any time and find a domestic violence informed support around you so that you know what you're dealing with and you've got resources if things are unmanageable for you because you deserve to be safe in this world.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Yeah yeah you know early days before I think before we separated um because Dave had been diagnosed with bipolar too and can I just say he doesn't have that okay so it is a real condition but he doesn't have that um he was just living split um I actually was part of a carers group with Mission Australia um people caring for people with mental health conditions and um I used to see a social worker there and she said to me one day she said Noni I want you to call 1-800 respect and so yeah I went ahead and I did that because safety is imperative.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yeah so thank you so much for this conversation guys um I'm just wondering if there's any services and supports that you'd like our listeners to know about that you offer we we both support um partners and um we're actually in the process of creating a program for men that we'll do together that is is a combination of um Dr.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Mamma's work um a Josh Oldslane from the Secure Relationship his men's program some of Stephen Stosney's work basically a culmination of what Dave has found what we've found to be the most supportive through this process.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah thanks Tony look really appreciate you guys the authenticity the transparency of sharing with your what your journey's been like as you've engaged with this topic in your own relationship and as you've taken what you've learned to support others in a similar situation. And any links and things that you've mentioned there Noni we'll put them in the show notes for our listeners. So thanks so much for being here today. Awesome thanks Jane thank you Joe thank you so much for joining me for my conversation with David and Noni Yates. If this conversation has been an encouragement to you please rate review and share the podcast so that others might find that encouragement too. If you'd like to reach out go to my website at quietwisdom.com.au and leave me a message there I'd love to chat with you and support you in some way. You might also like to join my support group waitlist for the next round of support group. Until next time gently does it with your beautiful self